Follow Up on Organic Minutes
30 04 2009Folks,
I think clarification is needed on VRS industry; that is, should or should not do regarding these phone-in situations; like on-line education, tele-seminars, getting information via phone, etc.
First of all I like what commentators Todd and Christian said in their comments. We have 5 Titles from ADA. Check out an abbreviated form on ADA
Basically should consider these titles of ADA as a way to meet the federal expectations. Unfortunately, often a company or service is not willing to do make changes, then an alternative is offered. Like one commentator sez, if not able to get Title 1 thru 3 implemented, then only alternative is Title 4 which is relay service.
We know how difficult it is to get federal agencies to act on various issues and may take them years to resolve that. Deaf/hoh should not have to suffer because of that. So alternative is acceptable, but with following conditions for business ethics.
I do feel very strongly that it is not VRS providers’ place to advertise or promote these phone-in services either via website or emails or flyers. I feel strongly that in meeting functional equivalence, deaf/hoh – just like hearing persons – find these services on their own is the ideal way to go about it.
VRS providers who advertise/promote these phone-in services only have one thing in their minds – "ramp up" VRS minutes – in other words, manufactured minutes (I like that term, Todd). Same for those VRS providers who use domain whose sole purpose is to connect to phone-in services. Or those VRS providers who pay individuals to call these those phone-in service. Or VRS providers who pay various organizations to call VRS providers based on accumulation of VRS minutes.
However, those deaf/hoh who simply found phone-in services from newspaper or media news, and they did NOT get info from VRS providers or from Outreach Services who have contract with VRS providers, should be allowed. The exception, in my humble opinion, is classroom interpreting at Universities or Colleges – these I feel are verboten! Essentially because Universities/Colleges can afford them and FCC says no.
I talked with a few ethical VRS providers and I was pleased to learn that they practice that. They do not have any contract/behind the scene dealings/behind organizations/etc. to encourage phone-in services. So these VRS providers allow these phone-in services to be processed as these were "found" by deaf/hoh individual.
One additional issue. I’ve had a chance to talk with a few professional interpreters who work in VRS environment. They said "most" video interpreters do not like to interpret these phone-in services. Once a while, they said no problem, but on a daily basis they don’t like. Said they lose the motivation to stay with VRS industry. We deaf/hoh need to be sensitive to these video interpreters as well. After all, they’re symbiote to us deaf/hoh. We cannot live without each other.
Anyway, the botton line is simply that VRS minutes should be purely "consumer-driven" as chosen/determined by deaf/hoh only, not manufactured VRS minutes.
eyes open & thumbs up,
Ed
All VRS Providers use manufactured VRS minutes. They are out to build many minutes as much as they can. I think FCC needs to hire auditors to check around VRS’s system to make sure all are following FCC’s rules. other example is when I used to call help.csdvrs.tv, It will go to point to point deaf/hh tech suppt. Now, I dialed help.csdvrs.tv and it went to VI? WHY? build up some mintues?
which companies were the ethical ones that you talked to? were there any VRS providers who admitted to these practices? i would think not. But, we all know many of the providers are engaged in ramping up minutes. What about the deaf employees/contractors who are being paid to make calls? Could they be held liable?
Tammy,
I have received quite a few emails not unlike your email. Not only csdvrs, but a few others as well. Hopefully this edsalert will alert VRS industry that deaf/hoh are smart enough to spot manufactured minutes.
Ed
Anonymous,
You are right. None of them admitted any practices that may not be ethical, but as you implied that deaf/hoh can tell which is which.
On your last question. I wondered about that, too. It seems they will be held liable if FBI gets wind of that. I am beginning to wonder perhaps FCC does not have jursdiction over that. The “intent” to stage fraud seems to fall under FBI.
eyes open & thumbs up,
Ed
Hey Ed!
As great as ever your insights are – I always enjoy reading these. Now I know that there is the technology available to host ‘one to many’ video calls and it would be more ethical if an organiser works with a VRS provider to provide this service so people calling in can all share the same interpreter(s) which is more efficient and effective than having a whole team tied up with the same call interface…..
However I agree with the comment that VRS providers should NOT actively market these events – it is up to the organisers!
I could not find the connection to Todd and Christian – can you refer me to these please by posting a link? Many thanks.
Jeff
Oops – just noticed the reference ‘Follow up’ so have located the original article – (hangs head in shame!)
Jeff
Jeff,
Good to see you commenting again. I think the FCC will deem it suspicious if organizer and VRS work together; even if organizer does not get paid. Better if they do not work together. If organizer decides to publish phone-in service on their own and without any agreements with any VRS providers – then that is probably ok. Tough to keep eye on I know.
eyes open & thumbs up,
In my mind, there are at least two different categories of manufactured minutes. (And yes, I agree, Todd is a genius for coming up with that phrase!) As an interpreter, I’m not crazy about either one. The number one thing that I think should be so illegal as to deserve criminal prosecution for setting up this business practice in their company is the one with kickbacks. If you are paying people a portion of your profit to call in and create these manufactured minutes, you are guilty of fraud against the United States government. I may be wrong, but I believe that it is a felony. If this is the only way you can afford to run your business, you either need to take a look at your business practices, or cry to the FCC that you need more money (I doubt they will give it to you, but I understand that at the end of the year, if you went in the hole doing any kind of relay, the government will give you some money to make up for it. That is where the term “reimbursement” comes from, that nobody should have to operate at a loss in order to provide access to the telephone system. If I’m wrong, please correct me.) The reason that this is allowed to go on unchecked is that unlike with TTY relay, the state public utilities commission is not monitoring the business practices of the various VRS providers. If they’re not paying for it, they’re certainly not going to monitor it. The FCC doesn’t do such monitoring, and for TTY, that doesn’t really matter. It is already being monitored by the states. I doubt that the FCC, or any part of the federal government, has the time or the funding to do any more than the occasional visits that we already get at video relay. Besides, friends of mine who have worked at the kickback centers (and then quit, out of frustration) have told me that when the FCC is visiting, their supervisors tell them to terminate those calls. The FCC tends to be complaint-driven. Who is going to complain about getting kickbacks? Nobody! So the kickback minutes go on for as long as the provider deems them to be financially necessary, usually to help a new provider who is having a hard time paying for interpreters to just sit there during the low call volumes at the beginning of their business. The other kind of manufactured minutes are what I call TCB minutes, meaning minutes for taking care of business. (And by the way, whoever thought of the idea of all the Deaf and hard-of-hearing people who want to attend a certain conference call setting up some kind of a technology where they all share one interpreter station is very smart. Was that you, Ed?) Although TCB minutes do not involve kickbacks paid to callers for fake calls, they take legitimate calls and feed money into the company’s own pocket just for running its own business. I know that these companies have a lot of Deaf employees and are sometimes owned by Deaf people. Some wonderful employment opportunities have come along, and interpreters are not the only people enjoying them. Naturally, people will place calls to other people to do business throughout the day, and most people prefer to use their own video relay company when doing so. So where do we draw the line? I have worked in places that use more than half the working VI staff at any given time for conference calls, while making the people who want to make a nonconference call form a queue, and overworking the interpreters and sending us to an early grave. They also did a lot of telemarketing from within their offices out to the hearing community, and they had a messaging service that they used us for as well. They loved clogging up their own system! I quit that job. Where I work now, the calls seem to be quite legitimate. The manufactured minutes, I wouldn’t miss if they never came in again. As for calling in to telecourses and the like, yes, I want to provide equal access to what a hearing person would get, but at the same time, I think that the interpreters are very overworked in this field and that may contribute to the dislike you have heard about, so I guess I have mixed feelings on that one. Some of these services are being read from a script, so they can be maddeningly fast to keep up with and still provide something good in the interpretation. Others are more natural conversations, which are the types of things interpreters are used to handling outside of VRS. It does seem like something where you should use VRI because they are set up for it. Then again, hearing people can do it. I would say that it’s fair to do it as long as you really wanted to make that call, and you’re not just doing it to ramp up the minutes.
Terpgirl,
Are you going to be in Philadelphia for RID? If so, I would like to meet you. Like you, I’m a terp working in the industry, and there are a few things I’d like to hear you views on.
Deer rp,
Yes, I am going to RID, but only for one meeting on Monday. I only live a couple of hours away, and I cannot attend anything else. You may write to me and sitcomkid@comcast.net. If you prefer telephone, slip me your number.